Second rifle mounted thermal

[Taco]

Hey boys moving my Zeus 640 from a 300 to a 6.8. Hooray for Billie, hooray for school!! I've got a scanner. I think I want another thermal shooter option for me or guests. I've got a 5.56 lwrc with a ta-33 a oh on it as well as the 300wtf that will get a 1x4 variable, and will be adding a .308 as well. So, I'm thinking its clip on time. This won't get used a hell of a lot. Shots mostly under 100yds after a stalk. My scanner is a pulsar 384. How do we like the Apollo 324? Have they put the reticles back on them? I hunt hogs amongst cows a lot. Not like next to a cow but you know what I mean......around cows. I dont have any problems making out who is there to party. The 324 would save me a lot of coin. Thoughts?

 

[Taco]

Sorry I got the Billy Madison quote wrong. It's 'yahoo for me, yahoo for school!" I could edit but that's not my style.

 

[RattlesnakeDan]

Sorry I got the Billy Madison quote wrong. It's 'yahoo for me, yahoo for school!" I could edit but that's not my style.

Just roll with it Taco, just roll with it!

 

[Jhop]

I have a pair of Zeus 3-24x75 thermals. I have one mounted and use one for scanning I've wanting to be able mount up to different rifles like you. I've zeroed using the different rifle profiles on different guns. However the return to zero just isn't there with the Armasight mount that comes with it. Bobro engineering makes a return to zero mount for the Armasight Zeus. Night Combat solutions is the sole carrier of this mount. That being said trying to get a hold of someone from Night Combat Solutions has been an impossible task for me. I've called so many times and left messages I'm expecting the cops to show up at my door and serve me with a restraining order one day. E-mails and messages from this sight are worthless too. Good luck. Clip on might be the way to go.

 

[wigwamitus]

Aaron is recovering from recent surgery ... he is alive ... I've heard from him several times this week ... he should be getting back in the saddle very soon ... I think there was a problem with the first batch of mounts and they had to get redone ...

 

[FrankT]

Back surgery can be difficult, Get better soon Aaron!

 

[wigwamitus]

Back to the OP's question ... I had an Apollo 42mm, 1x, 324 (60) and it worked fine. When I went hog hunting I used it as a standalone sight, so mine had reticles. I think my software version was 1.04 April 2014. Agree with Jhop the mounts aren't the greatest, so a new mount would be good. The mounts are ok at first but don't wear gracefully. I never used it over 300yds to shoot. If I used it in front of a 1-4x I'd run the 1-4x on 1x to maximize image clarity, it was pretty fuzzy at 2x digital, so would be with the day scope on 2x as well. If you've already ID'd the object and determined to shoot, the 2x is fine, but for mostly under 100yds ... and even more mostly under 150yds, 1x should work. Trying it at 3x in front of the Vortex 1-6x or the EOTECH+Magnifier it was too fuzzy. But you can try 1.5x or 2x maybe that will work for you!

 

[Taco]

Wig, as a stand alone it's fuzzy at 2x with reticle at 150? At 100 to 150 it's pretty clear as a stand alone at 1x? About the only video I can find is of the 640 version. Anyone have 324 video? My little 3x acog has pretty good glass. May just go 640. S, I don't know.

 

[wigwamitus]

Taco, there is quite a bit of video from my Apollo in my "practicing" thread ... start at the beginning of the thread and skip everything except the video ... only in the past 5 months has there been video from other devices ... the Zeus 640 and the Q-14 640 ...

 

[wigwamitus]

And it only starts to get fuzzy if you try to zoom in on the pixels ... with digital zoom or day scope zoom ... same difference ...

Roughly speaking a 640 becomes a 320 when you zoom with digital or a day scope at 2x ...
A 320 becomes a 160 at 2x ...
and so on ...

 

[wigwamitus]

if I wanted to run a thermal clipon at 3x ... I'd get a 640 if I could afford it ... if not .. I would get a 320 and accept some fuzz ... nothing wrong with a little fuzz ... IDing deer, cows, turkey's, coyotes and be done with the Apollo at 2x ... but it will be 2/3rds based on movement ... maybe 1/6 based on shape and 1/6 based on prior knowledge of what is/can be/should be/is likely to be in that spot at that time. My ROE requires observation of movement unless I can make a positive ID based on shape. And most of the time that requires movement.

 

[Taco]

Taco, there is quite a bit of video from my Apollo in my "practicing" thread ... start at the beginning of the thread and skip everything except the video ... only in the past 5 months has there been video from other devices ... the Zeus 640 and the Q-14 640 ...

Very cool. Thanks man.

 

[wigwamitus]

With your 3x ACOG

324 x 256 with 3x zoom becomes ... 108 x 81

640 x 480 with 3x zoom becomes ... 213 x 160

==
With a 1-4x set to 2x

324 x 256 with 2x zoom becomes ... 162 x 128

640 x 480 with 2x zoom becomes ... 320 x 240

==
With a 1-4x set to 1.5x

324 x 256 with 1.5x zoom becomes ... 216 x 170

640 x 480 with 1.5x zoom becomes ... 426 x 320

==
So, not surprisingly, this tells us that based on thermal detector resolution ... an Apollo 324 x 256 in front of a 1.5x day scope is going to look about like a Apollo 640 x 480 in front of a 3x day scope ... of course there are other factors, but based on this one factor, that is the inference.

So for hogs ... I would think it would be rare to take a shot over 200yds, hence 1.5x ought to be fine ... but again, if you must have 3x on the day scope ... then 640 will definitely look better ... otherwise if you can live with 1.5x (off the 1-4x u mentioned) then the 324 will look about the same as the 640 on 3x.

 

[JPK]

I would suggest a second dedicated scope, but with a mount that will return to zero for both the thermal and the day optic.

So, your day optic with a Larue or Bobro one piece QD mount, and an IR Defense MK II with their Larue mounts.

With the range estimate you gave, the 19mm, 1.45x MK II would do the job. I have both the 1.45x Patrol and the 2.45x 35 mm MK II and I find the 2.45x about perfect for a thermal. MK II's are 640 and offer a good view at 2x digital, useable at 4x digital if the target has already been ID'd and is more or less stationary (loss of resolution and FOV re quickly moving targets with 4x zoom.)

Fwiw, when I last looked, a clip on cost about $1k more than a similar dedicated scope. Imo, some of that money is better used for a good QD mount set up.

Another option that makes sense to me is to go with a good mid range unit like the Pulsar 50mm 2x 384 and spend some of the savings on a new, dedicated-for-night hunting upper.

JPK

 

[TEXASLAWMAN]

I would go with 640 for clip on since you are zooming in on the screen. As a dedicated scope 320-338 units are good enough for hunting.

 

[Taco]

Lawman, are there still reticle options in the Apollo? Just called armasight and a cs guy tells me that there have never been reticles on the Apollos. I tell him well I've seen videos of apollos with reticles. He's says let me ask this other guy.......nope it's a clip on never had reticles.

 

[wigwamitus]

Ask Armasight to call me I had an Apollo with reticles ... I suspect there are some reticles in my videos as well.

I guess they got some new guys with no clue

==
EDIT
You can also ask them to read the Apollo manual on their website (I just did). The manual explains how to zero the reticles, change their color, etc.
END EDIT

 

[TEXASLAWMAN]

Lawman, are there still reticle options in the Apollo? Just called armasight and a cs guy tells me that there have never been reticles on the Apollos. I tell him well I've seen videos of apollos with reticles. He's says let me ask this other guy.......nope it's a clip on never had reticles.

Yes they have reticles.

 

[Taco]

The more I've thought about it I came to the conclusion that I like having dedicated night hunting rifles. 99% of my hunting now is at night for hogs. I have a beater AR in the truck with a 1x4 for rare daytime use. Even though the AR is modular I've never been one to want to pull stuff on and off rails or change uppers. I like a rifle in the safe with a job. My Zeus 75 will go on the 6.8 and I'm gonna get another Zeus 75 or 42 640 as a back up. I said this was for friends or family use but really it's all about me. They don't want to go out when it's cold and hunt so they can buy their own S. Two dedicated night guns is the answer for me, which means another scope on either the 300 or another 6.8. The compromise isn't worth it. Thanks.

 

[wigwamitus]

I've been through the same thought process ... I now have 2 night guns with thermal sights aboard as well .

What about a low to mid end Zeus Pro ?? I'm looking at same ... the Pro line do have some nice features if you can find a good deal in the pile and the software is updatable without having to send it in.

The 2 power Zeus Pro 336, is showing on Optics Planet for around $5k with only $100 difference between the 30hz and 60hz ...

Armasight Zeus Pro 336 2-8x30mm Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight - 336x256 w/ Free Shipping and Handling — 2 models

I wonder why it is the 336 devices all seem to have twice the magnification as the "equivalent" entries on the 640 side (of the Zeus Pro Line) ??

2, 4, 8 for the 336s ...

1, 2, 4 for the 640s ...

==
Zeus PRO 336 2-8x30 (30Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 336x256 (17μm) 30Hz Core, 30mm Lens
Zeus PRO 336 2-8x30 (60Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 336x256 (17μm) 60Hz Core, 30mm Lens
Zeus PRO 336 4-16x50 (30Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 336x256 (17μm) 30Hz Core, 50mm Lens
Zeus PRO 336 4-16x50 (60Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 336x256 (17μm) 30Hz Core, 50mm Lens
Zeus PRO 336 8-32x100 (30Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 336x256 (17μm) 30Hz Core, 100mm Lens
Zeus PRO 336 8-32x100 (60Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 336x256 (17μm) 30Hz Core, 100mm Lens

Zeus PRO 640 1-8x30 (30Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 640x512 (17μm) 30Hz Core, 30mm Lens
Zeus PRO 640 1-8x30 (60Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 640x512 (17μm) 60Hz Core, 30mm Lens
Zeus PRO 640 2-16x50 (30Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 640x512 (17μm) 30Hz Core, 50mm Lens
Zeus PRO 640 2-16x50 (60Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 640x512 (17μm) 60Hz Core, 50mm Lens
Zeus PRO 640 4-32x100 (30Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 640x512 (17μm) 30Hz Core, 100mm Lens
Zeus PRO 640 4-32x100 (60Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 640x512 (17μm) 60Hz Core, 100mm Lens