Need Help understanding "Clip-On's"

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Bocephus

LSB Member
I'm looking to add another night optic to my set up for a buddy scope, or just to have a back up. With that, I wouldn't mind it being a night-vision clip on since I already have a MK2.

I will start by saying I don't really know anything about night vision, and have zero experience with clip-ons as well.

My thought was I see these "PVS-14's" from all sorts of makers that could be in the price range of what I'm looking to spend for my back up or buddy rifle. My thought was if I could get one of those and just use it as a clip on in from of my Nikon 4-12 day scope, that would be great! But my little bit of reading is showing it doesn't quite work that way.

I see people use the term "culminated". Does that just mean the ability to line the two up? In my mind, if the day scope is sighted in, why does the night vision need aligned ? Does is "bend" the view coming into the day scope?

So many questions, but lets just start with this.

Thanks.
 
wigwamitus

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
Collimation - to bring multiple elements (lenses in our case) into alignment.

All our scopes, day, night, thermal, binoculars have multiple lenses in them. If these were not lined up, we would see things at an offset. If we shot them we would miss. So the lenses need to be lined up.

But collimation isn't the only issue.

The rear lens of a 14 is insufficient to support any magnification other than 1x if used as a clipon. That's why I posted last night, using the 3x magnifier of the 14 (designed to magnify the front end) ... screwed in to the rear of a 14 lens, to provide more focal length and de-magnification to allow a 14 lens to be used as a clipon.

16c0poeh.jpg


So the lenses need to line up ... you need enough effective focal length to support the level of magnification you need ...

For thermal clipons the tiny lens also helps mitigate resolution reduction. I was able to get 4x well and 8x fuzzy with the above setup.

==
Purpose designed clipons like N-Vision Optics TC-50, FLIR T-75 or BAE UTC-x can support 10x+ magnification. The UTC-x supports 18x with some pixelation but you can still see a usable image and hit the target.

IsO1OVqh.jpg


UTC-x at 500yds looking at heated steel 12x24 at 7x

44g3NcVh.jpg


UTC-x at 375yds 15x

LILMdoih.jpg


Note using crappy phone cam, reticles are crisp in real life ...

==

All that said, I prefer thermal scope for hunting. You avoid all the issues with clipons and you get good optical magnification on the front end. You maximize your resolution. This helps A LOT with identifying critters more quickly at greater distances and that is a critical capability.
It also helps with shot placement, but I'd rate the PID aspect as more important.

Unless you want to shoot 500yds to 900yds with a high end thermal clipons at night, then the use case for thermal clipons is minimal and then usually boils down to a person that only has one rifle and doesn't want to take their day scope off. Fortunately, I have several rifles and can afford to leave a couple set up for night work.

Night vision clipons have less issues than thermal clipons and folks do use those. But they work best when the critters agree to come out in the open. If the critters are in the woods or behind vegetation, then I can't see them with NV and an illuminator makes it worse by bouncing off the vegetation and washing out. For critter hunting I want a thermal scope.
 
wigwamitus

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
Night Vision clipons do have less issues ... here is PVS-30 ... but they add weight to the front of the rifle and work best if you shoot them off tripods.

3TC37LCh.jpg


If your hunting style allows you to shoot off tripods, then NV Clipons can work. But I find I'm doing a lot of moving around when I am out and tripods don't usually fit in.

My go to hunting setup is a 5.56(10.3) with a Mk3 60mm .. short, light, handy, great spotting capability = great PID capability.

ETEYTHMh.jpg


==
But like if you are shooting yotes with a call and able to setup a tripod and call the yotes out in the open. Then NV clipon works fine.
 
Last edited:
hdfireman

hdfireman

Blackstone Arms
SUS VENATOR CLUB
Vendor
LoneStarBoars Supporter
Bocephus said:
I'm looking to add another night optic to my set up for a buddy scope, or just to have a back up. With that, I wouldn't mind it being a night-vision clip on since I already have a MK2.

I will start by saying I don't really know anything about night vision, and have zero experience with clip-ons as well.

My thought was I see these "PVS-14's" from all sorts of makers that could be in the price range of what I'm looking to spend for my back up or buddy rifle. My thought was if I could get one of those and just use it as a clip on in from of my Nikon 4-12 day scope, that would be great! But my little bit of reading is showing it doesn't quite work that way.

I see people use the term "culminated". Does that just mean the ability to line the two up? In my mind, if the day scope is sighted in, why does the night vision need aligned ? Does is "bend" the view coming into the day scope?

So many questions, but lets just start with this.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
I hunted with clip-on NV and thermal for years and it's a lot of info to type and answer questions. Feel free to call 214-945-5520
 
B

Bocephus

LSB Member
Appreciate the info Wigwamitus. That helps.

HDfireman - appreciate the offer, I might take you up on that. Thanks.
 
R

Robert H

LSB Member
I put on armasight Apollo 336 in front of Leopuold pig plex poi no where near where daytime optic sighted in I have been using the thermals optic instead I tried shimming the thermal no help I will likely just adjust daytime optic to make it work unless there is a better way.

Thanks
R
 
wigwamitus

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
You can adjust the boresight of the Apollo ... don't adjust your day optic !!!
Please look at the menu in the Apollo, it has been 2 years since I sold mine, but I think it says "bore sight" ... in the menu.
 
Wildfowler

Wildfowler

Mis'sippi
SUS VENATOR CLUB
Wait a minute?

You have to “bore sight” the Apollo clip on? What does that involve?

The only clip on I have experienced is on that a friend has. An LWTS thermal clip on and we can use that one in front of any scope without having to adjust anything?

What’s the difference?

Thanks.

Edit: the only time there was a problem is because my buddy left the LWTS on 2X when I clipped it in front of my rifle one time and I missed what I was shooting at.
 
wigwamitus

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
... What’s the difference? ...
Click to expand...

BIG difference between the over $10k MSRP military clipons and the under $10k civilian clipons.

Military clipons like the PVS-30 and the UTC-x do not have any means of performing adjustments ... but the civilian ones, like the Apollo and even the $1 less than $10k MSRP clipon have adjustments and require adjustments ... at least the ones I've had did. The military ones are "pre-bore-sighted" at the factor ... meaning their Risley Prism rear lens were collimated on a collimating table. I'm guessing some manufacturerers like Armasight and IRD did not have collimating tables and hence could not collimate their thermal clipons. Not even sure the Apollo has Risley Prism rear lens, but pretty sure the SNIPE does ... it sure costs extra like it does.

==
... What does that involve? ...
Click to expand...
It is pretty much like zeroing ... except the rifle and day scope are already zeroed, so you are "zeroing" the thermal clipon to match.
 
R

Robert H

LSB Member
wigwamitus said:
You can adjust the boresight of the Apollo ... don't adjust your day optic !!!
Please look at the menu in the Apollo, it has been 2 years since I sold mine, but I think it says "bore sight" ... in the menu.
Click to expand...


The recticle in the apollo is on it does not match the daytime optic if I take the thermal off and shoot the daytime optic it is dead on they just don't match up??
 
wigwamitus

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
... Are you saying move the armasight recticle to the daytime optic recticle?? Thanks
Robert ...
Click to expand...

Negative ... I'm saying follow the instructions on pages 30-31. You have to shoot the gun, you have to adjust the impact, per the instructions on pages 30-31.
 
R

Robert H

LSB Member
I did that and the armasight recticle does not match to the daytime scope not even close Recticle in the daytime scope is zeroed when the thermal is on poi changes significantly so basically I use the thermal recticle and not the daytime optic take thermal off daytime scope is good.

I expected to be able use the daytime optic recticle but it's to far off
 
wigwamitus

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
1 - You are not trying to co-witness the reticles ! See if you can turn off the Apollo reticle per the reticle menu on page 30.

2 - Then go to settings and adjust TOP MARGIN and LEFT MARGIN per page 33 ... And adjust those, while shooting, to bring the POI to equal the POA.

I think you need to be adjusting the TOP and LEFT MARGINs ( not doing boresight ) ... sry ... boresight is just zeroing the reticle, that is not what you wat to do, you need to shift the display. That's what the MARGIN settings do. It has been a couple of years since I sold my Apollo.

So trying turning off the reticle with the reticle menu on page 30 ... the reticle and zeroing the reticle are for when you are using the apollo as a dedicated 1x scope, but for when you are using it as a clipon.

Then go into settings ... TOP MARGIN and LEFT MARGIN and adjust the display until the POI matches the POA per page 33.
 
wigwamitus

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
Adjusting the "Margins" ... has the goal of aligning what you see through the back of the apollo with what you see through the day scope. Once those are aligned, what the day scope sees through the thermal, will be what the day scope hits through the thermal.
Sorry about the mis-cue on the "bore sight" ... most everyone else calls the margin sort of adjustments "boresight" and does them at the factory ... though those clipons have Risley Prisms on the back and hence can be "boresighted".
 
R

Robert H

LSB Member
wigwamitus said:
Adjusting the "Margins" ... has the goal of aligning what you see through the back of the apollo with what you see through the day scope. Once those are aligned, what the day scope sees through the thermal, will be what the day scope hits through the thermal.
Sorry about the mis-cue on the "bore sight" ... most everyone else calls the margin sort of adjustments "boresight" and does them at the factory ... though those clipons have Risley Prisms on the back and hence can be "boresighted".
Click to expand...

That fixed it hits perfect using daytime optic through thermal.Thank you for your assistance.


Robert
 
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