Question

[theblakester]

Let's say u have dual helmet mounted thermal monocular like the IR patrol and PVS-14 for night hunting, one for each eye used at same time.... If u had an IR laser mounted to your rifle, would the thermal monocular over one eye mess up the ability to keep both eyes open and still easily see the aiming point of the laser on target through your PVS-14 viewing eye?

 

[Taco]

Call armasight and ask a CS rep. Just kidding.

 

[wigwamitus]

I've done it with Odin 1x, 17mm, 320(30) thermal on right eye and PVS-14 on left eye and answer for me is that I can use the thermal and the 14 together and aim with the laser. That being said, depending on conditions and balance of the brightness of the two devices and which eye is naturally dominant, I'm not often AWARE of seeing through both devices at the same time, even though I am. My brain can "emphasize" one device over the other without having to close one eye. But sometimes to force one device to be prominent, I do close one eye.

So a thermal can spot a critter in the brush but to aim accurately with the laser you still need to be able to see the critter with the laser, otherwise there will likely be an offset ... and for me that offset changes with my head position and the distance, so it doesn't seem to be predictable, so you can't rely on it. You need to see the critter with the pvs-14 eye to aim with the laser. And if the critter is in a brush or deep in woods or in a real dark place that might be tough, even though the thermal can see it fine. The only solution I've thought of to help in those cases is to have a powerful ir-illuminator with a one button activation, that activates both the laser and the illuminator at the same time. Then you maximize your chance of being able to see the critter with the pvs-14 and aim quickly with the laser. But I don't have the one button now. For rat slaying, when I was using the laser, I just left the illuminator on my helmet on. There were a couple of times were all I could see were the eyeballs, but that was enough to take a shot. I had seen the rat with the thermal, I then looked with the 14 and due to the illuminator being on could see the eyeballs and take the shot.

So it is close, but not perfect to what you are asking about. It is not true fusion, it is a "poor mans" sort of fusion. If you want a type of true fusion, then the PAS-29/COTI with a PVS-14 can get you there, but those are pretty short ranged. Good enough for hogs. At 50yds they are great .. at 300yds not so great. If you already have a PVS-14 then the COTI would run about $6,500 plus or minus.
Or you can shoot for the moon and go for the PSQ-20

They run $14,000 street price ...

So poor man's works for me ...

Middle income man solution (COTI) has distance limitations on the thermal side ... doesn't work for me.

Rich man PSQ-20 has pocket book emptying syndrome ... so doesn't work for me.

pick your poison!!!

 

[TEXASLAWMAN]

I'll answer the question shortly. It does not work well they do not blend together. Some people's brains will adapt better than others. But the real answer is it does not work well.

 

[JPK]

And using a Patrol in particular does not work well since the Patrol's native magnification is 1.45x and not 1x.

Works better with a Pulsar HD 19a which is true 1x, but still not really well. (I have figured out how to helmet mount a 19A.)

JPK

 

[wigwamitus]

When we say "it doesn't work" ... there might be several different "its" we are talking about ... the first "it" which the OP asked might be more stringent than the "it" ... that JPK might be talking about (as JPK might not be including the laser aspect) ... I think I talked about three different "its".

01 - The OPs question could be restated as, "Is pvs-14 and thermal side by side on the helmet functionally equivalent to "true fusion"?" And the answer to that is NO. In "true fusion" if the thermal see a critter .. like my example of the rat in the wood pile. Then one can aim the laser at that spot in the wood pile ... and the pvs-14 can see the laser dot ... and if the laser dot is in exactly the same spot as the thermal sees the critter than the round will go there (if laser is zeroed at that distance) there is no requirement for the 14 to see the critter as there is no offset between where the 14 sees the dot and the thermal sees the critter in "poor man fusion" (like I run) there usually is a small offset in the separately mounted solution given in the question.

02 - But another "it" is ...if I spot something with a thermal and can see it with the PVS-14 and can aim at it with the laser can i hit it? And the answer is yes. It the rat example, if I see the rat with a hand held thermal and then drop the hand held thermal and shoulder the rifle and activate the laser, IF my illuminator on my helmet is already on and I can see even just the eyeballs of the rat with my 14, then I can aim with the laser and hit. I have done exactly this several times.
02 is not the same as 01 ... but if the thermal is on the head then I can transition more quickly between the thermal spotter and the 14/laser aiming system as I do not have to "drop" thermal to my side (on the lanyard of course).

03 - And the third "it" is just having 14 and thermal side by side for navigating and spotting while moving, with the idea of flipping up to engage with rifle mounted thermal. Having both spotter and 14 on helmet allows both hands free for tasks such as driving a 4-wheeler. With non-predators I think there is usually time to flip up the NODs ... but with predators the laser might be a good secondary aiming solution for snap shots were there is no time to flip up the NODs and shoulder and aim with the thermal sight on the rifle.

 

[wigwamitus]

And the primary reason I didn't get an IR-Patrol is because JPK told me here that it was really 1.45x ... thanks for letting us know about that !!! The marketing data says 1x ... and hence is at least "unclear"

For me having the thermal and the 14 on head side by side is a wonderous thing ... I have a hand back. Previously I would walk/ride around holding up the thermal with one hand beside the 14 on the head ... and I only had one hand for the rifle or the 4-wheeler handle bars ... now I have 2 hands free ! Yes, I have to "manipulate" the priority sometimes with my brain so I see either with the 14 or the thermal ... most of the time ... I see with both ... with a bit of an offset ... but that doesn't bug me as my MKIEB also have a slight offset ... the dominant eye thing takes care of that ... and I think it does for the 14/thermal case as well. Turning down the brightness of the thermal also helps. Between holding thermals up beside the 14 and having the thermal mounted beside the 14 ... I'm probably approaching 100 combined hours ... I did have headaches at first ... but turning down the brightness on the thermal got rid of them. Since I've been running the thermal on the helmet beside the 14 I have not had headaches ... and I've done 3 two hours walks and one 4 hour walk with them both ... as well as a number of shorter walks ... no headaches (knock, knock) yet.

 

[theblakester]

Cool thanks for the answers and info. I'm really just trying to gather info and input on how realistic and practical any of the 3 "it's" can or can't work... Or any other "it's" regarding this topic. I didn't know there was already a term for it called fusion. I assumed there was some kind of technology that made a device that did both but didn't even look it up bc I assumed it would be out of my price range.
So in regards to the "poor mans fusion", in theory, it sounds like a great idea to be able to use both at the same time assuming u had the right helmet and mount set up. Removing the IR laser from the equation, is it really that hard for your brain to combine the two different views from each eye if u were walking around or riding a 4 wheeler? Seems like not many people are trying this or arent sticking with it after trying and I'm curious if it's because of the $$$ or bc there aren't many good thermal options for this method or bc our brains just aren't seeing eye to eye with the thermal/nv combo

 

[JPK]

Wiggy reports the Odin works well on a helmet, and can be mounted on the opposite side of a PVS 14. It works for him...

I figured out a way to mount a Pulsar HD 19A on a helmet next to a PVS 14, which is a less expensive option. I played around with it but it just didn't work for me. I will try it again to refresh my recollection and report back. But, iirc, it worked ok at short ranges, and might have worked on a stand, but when moving the 30htz refresh rate of the 19A caused lag on that side while the PVS 14 has no lag, the result being it just didn't work for me.

JPK