Thermal Delay?

FrankT

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OK I have never heard of this but was quoted it as gospel...you guys tell me

Hunter:2 down on video this past weekend. Forgot to lead more to allow for thermal delay. Also, my first shot must have hit slightly higher than I thought it would.

ME:what is thermal delay? never heard of it

Hunter:It takes probably 1/4 of a second to display what is actually happening through the thermal to your eye sight. So when animals are moving, you would need to aim about 1/4 of a second in front of them because that is where they actually are.

ME ok, never heard of such a thing, when moving you do have to lead the target properly in the first place

Hunter 30hrtz has a slight delay. 60hrtz is real time

ME OK guys...I just call that not leading enough or not following thru...old bird hunter here ...I called it a plus for you, got to shoot more and took 2 hogs down!

Hunter If it was daylight and looking through a regular scope, I wouldn't lead that far

Thought I was talking to DJ but this guy did drop 2 hogs after only 10 or so shots
 
D

djones

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i used to think that was happening because i would have sworn i didn't have to lead as much with my night scope. but the bullets seem to hit the dirt clods just as fast, although i probably couldn't tell a 1/4 sec delay there.
 

FrankT

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DJ, as I am not a mathematician I was wondering if there is real math to this and how could he figure out a 1/4 second lead in 100yds as he was shooting? Sounded BS to me and I almost said as much in my comments but needed Brian or Todd or another of you thermal guys to back me up!
 

Bacon8tor

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Is he using an ATN thermal? I used to have a bad delay with my xsight. But there's no delay in my Zeus 30hz.

You can tell by just moving the scope around while looking through it. Don't have to be shooting at something.
 

Jhop

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I'm sure there is lag but not sure it'd be a whole 1/4 second. I'd think at lag rate the screen would jump around trying to catch up as it refreshed. This would be noticible if you're swinging REALLY fast and stop all of a sudden. I know we 400hz on airborne thermal for a reason. Seriously, that's just the power we have available so that's what's used.
 

FrankT

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Is he using an ATN thermal? I used to have a bad delay with my xsight. But there's no delay in my Zeus 30hz.

You can tell by just moving the scope around while looking through it. Don't have to be shooting at something.

it is an Armasight
 

theblakester

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30 hz means the thermal scopes takes 30 "pictures" per second. I think science says your eyes/brain take images around that same speed. So the delay might be 1/15th of a second. So I think he is confused about the delay. I could be wrong and my explanation could be way off but I think that's kinda how I recall it being explained.
 

TEXASLAWMAN

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That was dangerranger, your eye only sees 24 frames per second 30hz is 30 FPS there is no delay I can see. Usually the problem more lays with the shooter misjudging range to target.
 
I wish you people wouldn't post unless you had a clue what you're talking about. Trying to get good information from a forum is impossible with all you yo-yos posting ignorance.

The Hz is the frame rate is same for a TV or a computer monitor, it has nothing to do with delay. It has to do with how many times the picture refreshes per second or as one of you stated basically how many pictures the scope takes per second. Nothing to do with the delay. The DELAY is the time is takes for the computer to process the image and display it. And THERE IS A DELAY. Like one of y'all said if you ever have had the privilege of holding a thermal scope, when you wave it around the delay is obvious. Similar to the delay experienced with a lot of electronic things, I can think of dozens. I was trying to find accurate info on delay and that Hunter2 guy y'all been criticizing this whole time might have been right about the .25 seconds. However, like anything I'm sure more expensive military-grade scopes have less delay due to better processors, etc. So the delay probably isn't standard. But after shooting swimming beavers in the head the past few nights estimating the delay helps a lot.

Also the hunter is wrong saying 30Hz is delayed and 60Hz is real time. 30Hz is refreshed slower meaning 60Hz a much smoother video. Look it up on google if you don't believe me.
 

Ratdog68

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I wish you people wouldn't post unless you had a clue what you're talking about. Trying to get good information from a forum is impossible with all you yo-yos posting ignorance.

The Hz is the frame rate is same for a TV or a computer monitor, it has nothing to do with delay. It has to do with how many times the picture refreshes per second or as one of you stated basically how many pictures the scope takes per second. Nothing to do with the delay. The DELAY is the time is takes for the computer to process the image and display it. And THERE IS A DELAY. Like one of y'all said if you ever have had the privilege of holding a thermal scope, when you wave it around the delay is obvious. Similar to the delay experienced with a lot of electronic things, I can think of dozens. I was trying to find accurate info on delay and that Hunter2 guy y'all been criticizing this whole time might have been right about the .25 seconds. However, like anything I'm sure more expensive military-grade scopes have less delay due to better processors, etc. So the delay probably isn't standard. But after shooting swimming beavers in the head the past few nights estimating the delay helps a lot.

Also the hunter is wrong saying 30Hz is delayed and 60Hz is real time. 30Hz is refreshed slower meaning 60Hz a much smoother video. Look it up on google if you don't believe me.

First off (since this is your first post on this forum), welcome to the fray. Secondly, your social graces displayed for your first post lack the type of "reach out and touch" that will net you favorable reactions from folks. Tone it down and be friendly. This is a good group of folks, and we enjoy good natured ribbing amongst friends. Establish yourself as a friend, and not some troll... looking to stir discontent.
 

rustybucket

New Member
I've noticed when I used my cheap photon the image seems to be the same speed as what my left eye sees when I scan, like looking though a day scope. But then I use my thermal and it has a delay or lag. It messes with my head for a little while, just a few minutes then I don't notice it anymore. The delay is very very small but its there. But it only happens when I've been using a day scope alot or photon. I'm not talking about screen refresh rates. That has nothing to do with the processing time from sensor to screen output. Just cause the screen refresh rate is 60HZ doesn't mean there isn't a processing delay. But something to consider is late at night when I'm tired and I drive home I can see the led taillights on cars blink when the brakes aren't being pressed. That's cause the led's are pulsed to make them dim and then full power when brakes are used and they get solid on power. But my eyes can pick up the refresh rate of the led driver on taillights. But I've never thought about having to lead more to make a hit on a moving target. I just thought it was the problem not of knowing the distance with thermal so I should have led more. Never thought about a processing delay as in the target is slightly farther ahead by the time the cpu writes the image to the screen. Someone need to test this, or we can just learn to shoot and use our equipment properly.
 

erForman

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I wish you people wouldn't post unless you had a clue what you're talking about. Trying to get good information from a forum is impossible with all you yo-yos posting ignorance.

The Hz is the frame rate is same for a TV or a computer monitor, it has nothing to do with delay. It has to do with how many times the picture refreshes per second or as one of you stated basically how many pictures the scope takes per second. Nothing to do with the delay. The DELAY is the time is takes for the computer to process the image and display it. And THERE IS A DELAY. Like one of y'all said if you ever have had the privilege of holding a thermal scope, when you wave it around the delay is obvious. Similar to the delay experienced with a lot of electronic things, I can think of dozens. I was trying to find accurate info on delay and that Hunter2 guy y'all been criticizing this whole time might have been right about the .25 seconds. However, like anything I'm sure more expensive military-grade scopes have less delay due to better processors, etc. So the delay probably isn't standard. But after shooting swimming beavers in the head the past few nights estimating the delay helps a lot.

Also the hunter is wrong saying 30Hz is delayed and 60Hz is real time. 30Hz is refreshed slower meaning 60Hz a much smoother video. Look it up on google if you don't believe me.

You're absolutely correct.
 

Brian Shaffer

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Actually, he isn't, not completely so. The delay is the difference between what is real time and what the user actually sees and Hz rate certainly may influence this. Remember, all that matters here is when the image is available to the user. At Hz rate of 30 would mean that the image you see will be frozen for 1/30 of a second before the next one appears. During that time, a hog running at 20 mph (29.3333 feet per second) will have moved 0.97 feet before the image is refreshed. That is not insignificant and is a delay of information to the user. Most users won't actually recognize this in real time, but if you have one of the older FLIR PS320 Scouts like I used to have that had a Hz rate of 7.5, you could see the delay and it was quite noticeable in real time. It looks like poor stop motion animation.

You do have the delay (lag) introduced by the processing power. That will delay the image getting to the screen and the refresh rate of the screen will introduce addition information lag to the user. In the grand scheme, the two work in tandem and the user doesn't usually notice what is processor delay and what is screen delay, but they both occur.

What the good doctor is talking about when it comes to looking through the scope and moving it and noticing a delay is a product of both processor capability and screen refresh rate. There is no way to get away from that given that we take our information from the screen.

Now, what Frank's guy was talking about 30 vs. 60 and 60 being "real time" is utter nonsense.
 

Ratdog68

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